Aaron sits down with Licensed Professional Counselor, Mary Claire Schibelka, to discuss dating and relationships in an era with dating apps and social media. Mary Claire gives her thoughts as an expert in helping others build and maintain the different relationships in their life. Her other specialties include sex therapy & sexual health, Mental Health, eating disorders, career counseling, spirituality & religion.
- Dating Apps
- Relationships & Significant Others
- Independent Lifestyles
- #MeToo Movement
Aaron Tharp 0:00
The information provided in this episode is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended to replace professional medical advice. If you have questions regarding your health, please contact your medical provider. Okay, welcome back. For today’s guest, we have Mary Claire chapelco. So, Mary Claire is a licensed professional counselor and singles coach based in Chicago, Illinois. Mary Claire, how are you today? Thanks for thanks for joining us.
Mary Claire Schibelka 0:33
Hello, thank you for having me. I’m doing great surviving this heatwave.
Aaron Tharp 0:38
Yes, supposed to be very mild in 78 or nine. you’re heading to Lollapalooza this weekend. So very exciting for
Mary Claire Schibelka 0:45
you. Yes. And God is gonna bless us with good weather that day, it looks like no, I’ve got my fingers crossed. We don’t want 90 degrees. We don’t want rain. None of that.
Aaron Tharp 0:55
Yeah, Chicago. They’ll take them when they can get them. Well, we’re super stoked to have you on I’m particularly jazzed about this topic, because it’s going to be about dating, right. So whether you’re dating online, if you’re dating on offline, if you’re single, if you’re, if you’re married. So this could potentially be a two part episode. But for the purposes of today, we’re going to just talk about dating. And I’d like to hear a little bit more about your background. So you specialize in in dating and building and maintaining relationships, spirituality, some body positivity stuff. So give us a little bit about your specialty, and what you work on with some of your clients.
Mary Claire Schibelka 1:44
Yeah, so I’m a licensed professional counselor. So that’s basically a clinical therapist. And in the clinical therapy setting, I see all kinds of clients, I work with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, a ton of relationship stuff. And that’s my passion, no relationship stuff. Um, so that is why I started my own business. And that is T with MC. That’s my singles coaching business. That’s mainly what we’re here to talk about today. And with that, I focus on helping women I work with men to really develop their sense of self worth, know who they are, I specialize in working with Christians. So part of that, too, is knowing who they are and God, and dating from a place of already feeling fulfilled, so that they’re not dating out of desperation, they’re not settling for just any old guy they can get. They’re coming at it from a stance of I already have everything I need. And if I find a partner to complement and add to that, then that’s fantastic. But if not, that’s okay, too. So there’s really two parts, there’s the self worth, and really building a fulfilling single life. And then there’s the dating on top of that.
Aaron Tharp 2:59
So first of all, I have to I have to really commend you for that, because I think men and women both we’ve we’ve drifted apart from really good, wholesome values, whether you’re a Christian or you’re not, it doesn’t, right, I think that we’ve just drifted apart from that. So we do our part here to you know, make sure that men are on the right path. And we do that in a couple of different areas. And I really, really appreciate people who are doing that on the female side of the equation, because I, we both want the same things. Yeah, it’s it’s just hard to filter through a lot of junk, you know? And absolutely not least, because you got to do that with yourself. So you mentioned that that relationships was your passion. So beyond that, what what led you to this kind of work? Because it’s, it’s, it can, it’s messy, it’s it’s tough work, sometimes I’m sure.
Mary Claire Schibelka 3:49
It can be. Relationships are really like the bread and butter of life. There’s a lot of psychological theorists from the past, and also today who believe that mental health is really centered around relationships. And if you have positive relationships, then you’re more likely to have good mental health. And it’s true because other people are a reflection of ourselves. And when we’re alone, first of all, we don’t have that social stimulation that we need. And also we can get so stuck in like our own devices in our own ways. And when we have other people, we just bloom in all these areas that we didn’t really know, that we could before.
Aaron Tharp 4:30
And it is part of that helping people get to know what it is that they that they really want.
Mary Claire Schibelka 4:38
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that is part of what prevents the settling or the saying, oh, okay, here’s a guy or a girl who wants to be with me. Perfect. Let’s do it. Like No, you have to actually back up and say, What am I looking for in a future partner? Do I want to get married? Do I want to have kids and the answers to those questions. They’ll dictate the a partner that you choose, hopefully they should.
Aaron Tharp 5:03
Yeah, there’s a I heard a story a couple years ago where, and this has happened with everybody. So you know, you want a Ford Explorer, I want a Ford Explorer, I want a Ford Explorer. And six months. That’s what you’re thinking of. And that’s all that you’re thinking of, and then you go get a Ford Explorer, and then you’re driving the Ford Explorer home from the dealership, and then they’re everywhere. You can see him everywhere. Yeah, it’s not that they weren’t there before. But it’s just that when you become more focused on it, it starts to appear in more areas than you were noticing before because you got clear on it. Right? So when you’re working with women, what what are what are some issues or some things that that that they’re struggling with? With regards to men? Like, what are some common themes that that you hear? Or is it more just with women like themselves?
Mary Claire Schibelka 5:53
No, they have a lot of issues with men two, believe it or not a general just kind of like lack of intentionality in dating. And a lot of the time, people are just kind of out there running around hanging out with each other talking, or whatnot. And nobody really knows what the goal is. So I really want to normalize having those kinds of discussions of like, this is what I’m looking for in a relationship, are you on the same page, um, a lot of women are struggling to find men who want to commit. And I think a lot of that is our current culture. And current media really like promoting the single independent lifestyle, or having a lot of partners at once, which being single and having independence is great. But there also comes a time when a lot of people want to settle down with one person. And what they’re finding is that it can be really difficult to find somebody who wants the same thing.
Aaron Tharp 6:51
Yeah, I would say between the two sexes, women have a have a more condensed timeframe with which to get their careers and their relationships in order or traditionally in order more so than they do for men. I think between, I would say, on average between 20 and 30 more men, it’s not as time time crunch, right?
Mary Claire Schibelka 7:17
Well, women have the pressure of the biological clock ticking. And there’s a lot of women now with modern science, who are having children all the way into their late 30s, or even 40s. But there’s a social pressure to
Aaron Tharp 7:29
Yeah, that’s, that’s accurate. Especially in the Midwest, right? It’s kind of the the normative, closer that you move out to the coast, it’s a little bit more normative to maybe stay single a little bit longer. So we share that. So what are you helping women to really look for when you’re working with them?
Mary Claire Schibelka 7:51
So we can start by talking about a little do we want to we’re talking about in person or on dating apps?
Aaron Tharp 8:01
You know, I think it would be let’s go with dating apps. So yeah, one of the things that men really struggle with, because we are very, we don’t take a great deal of pictures. And what what we’re missing and what we don’t realize is what what our profiles are sub communicating about our lives. So we just take it at face value, and women are seeing much deeper beyond just the image itself. Right. So go on with, with what you were saying about, about the dating apps?
Mary Claire Schibelka 8:38
Yeah. So you know, in general, actually, to answer your question, in a broader sense, I am helping women find those committed partners. Like I said, there are plenty of women and men out there who don’t want to commit to somebody right now. That’s fine. I’m not trying to tell them what to do. I’m not in their business, but the women who I work with, they’re looking for the next step. They’re looking for partners who are ready to commit, ready to settle down, if you will. So on the dating apps, there are there are certain things that are clues that somebody may be more ready for that than other people. So I’m pretty much Well, I would say some of the most popular dating apps, which I see mostly these days. hinge and Bumble, are the two that I think women tend to gravitate to more Tinder, it’s kind of worked itself into this, like shady, bad reputation zone. hinge and Bumble, I think are the are the two that are the most popular. And on both of those. You have a couple different things you can do. You can upload pictures, you can answer questions, they have prompts on there. And then you can also enter different things in terms of like, what do you do for work? Do you drink? Do you smoke? Do you have kids? So I encourage women to look for people who are taking the time Fill in those different things. Not that they have to do all of them, because there’s a certain element of privacy that we need when we’re on the internet. But the prompts are big. So for one, if you’re coming across a profile, and this guy has like one picture, and he doesn’t answer any of the questions that are available, you kind of have to ask yourself, what’s his purpose for being on here? Or how much time did he take when he was creating this profile? And how does that reflect into how serious he is about finding a partner? How does that reflect on? How about she knows about himself? These things are important. Yeah,
Aaron Tharp 10:44
we just were, we think very differently, right. And I think that the amount of effort being put into or lack thereof, for that matter is is way more obvious, I think, to to you guys than it is to us where we’re just like, Yeah, I got a couple questions like, I just want to, I just want to get there, right? I just want to enter the scene. And it’s like, okay, because you’re, you’re presenting a 2d model of yourself, you have to really best represent yourself in an authentic way that shows Hey, this is this is the full, hopefully, it’s the full fulfilled life that I have. And if you’d like to join the fun bus great. If you don’t, that’s great, too. But yeah, you have to create that in a way that is authentic. And beyond that, there’s no way to BS that. Because, yeah, you I feel like there’s an intuition that that women have that, again, is beyond men, where you can really sniff that out. Is that fair? To say? No,
Mary Claire Schibelka 11:47
I think it’s fair. I think it’s fair, I get what you’re saying, where a guy might just throw up a few pictures that he took, like, five years ago and be like, Okay, this works. who’s out there? Yeah. But yeah, if you put yourself in the shoes of somebody who is on the other end of that, there’s your profile, which has those two pictures. And then there are these other profiles of guys who took the time to answer some of those questions about what they’re looking for. And a partner or some of them are funny, and not nearly as serious, like you could really showcase your sense of humor. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of research about what happens in our brains when we’re looking at a dating app. And we know another person is just a swipe away. So in a sense, I, I don’t know if this is the right word to use, but there is almost like a comparison element going on. So you might be a wonderful person. But if you’re not taking the time to showcase that, you’re not putting in the effort to put statements on there, or little jokes, or whatever it is, or you know, pictures of you doing some of the things you love pictures of you with your family or traveling. It’s almost kind of like you get you get lost in the mix. It’s like, oh, okay, here’s this guy who likes to go hiking, and he has a sense of humor. Great. Oh, here’s this guy who uploaded one picture with a hat and sunglasses, and I have no idea what he looks like. Hmm, maybe the next one will be better. Is that common?
Aaron Tharp 13:26
I mean, I only I’m never on that side of the dating apps if and when I’m on them. But is that common?
Mary Claire Schibelka 13:32
I wouldn’t say it’s incredibly common. I think most people know better. Yeah. Um, but it happens. It does happen. I don’t know. What kind of luck they get. Yeah, it
Aaron Tharp 13:44
does. It does. And I, I would be willing to bet Well, I know. Maybe that’s maybe that’s aggressive but is to is to show it. So yeah. It’s great. If you want to say that you’re a Heikki, that you’re that you love hiking and that you’re big traveling guy. And then our if all of your pictures are at home, or in your car, and they’re all selfies and one is at the gym, it’s like, okay, you’re not doing any of those things. So I actually have to look at what you do. And your pictures Don’t say that.
Mary Claire Schibelka 14:16
Yeah, a picture’s worth 1000 words. And the car selfies now that one is really accurate. Really? That’s okay. It’s okay. Like, you know, it’s good to see a close up of your face and what you look like it’s when they’re all car selfies. Yeah. Like, does this guy live in his car?
Aaron Tharp 14:34
Yes. Right. Okay, so the prompts and you mentioned the thing about privacy too. There’s there is an element of like, if you sell the farm, it’s like why would you have to create a bit and not in a not in a manipulative way at all. But you have to create an air of like, No, you, you want to create some intrigue. Because if I just if I just say, this is where I work, this is what I do. And I just give you the form, there’s no incentive for you to, to, to, to be invested or want to find out more. And women love mystery. I mean, to some degree a healthy amount of mystery. So it’s like, I think everyone does. Yeah, yeah, that’s, if you’re not intrigued if it’s like, Okay, this is, you know, I’ve kind of gotten everything I need to know, then. What’s the point in meeting up? So?
Mary Claire Schibelka 15:26
Yeah, yeah, good. There’s a lot of a lot of things on there. I think Bumble is the one that has the most like you can put what your job is you can put where you grew up, you can put what your political affiliation is if your COVID vaccinated. If you drink, if you smoke, if you use chemical drugs, if you smoke pot like, and, you know, a lot of people, they, they’re worried that they’ll see like an employer out there something too. I actually had somebody tell me that one time a guy who I met, I said, you don’t really put a lot of information on here, and he was an attorney. And he’s like, yeah, working in the legal field, it’s made me a little bit paranoid. I’m like, okay, that’s fair, that’s fair. But you can still, like I was saying earlier, make a joke, or, you know, something that that shows a little bit of who you are without putting your whole self out there to the public.
Aaron Tharp 16:20
Yeah, very good. So beyond the visual cues, so we’ve talked about the prompts, and the pictures and whatnot, there are I mean, visual visual cues are not, they’re important in that it would be it would be ideal, if they were, if things were more symmetrical, or people were in better shape. Or if you’re representing yourself, you were okay with showcasing your entire body, or if you have like a full body picture, you know, that that’s very, that’s very transparent. It’s like, no, this this, this is me, I’m not missing arms or limbs or or, you know, sitting down all the time. My question for you is, what are some other things that that, that that are cues, beyond the prompts, because visual cues are much more something that that guys are akin to right. So are you how are you evaluating things like careers, hobbies? And then also where they’re going? You know, yeah, because men have to have like a direction? Or at least they should?
Mary Claire Schibelka 17:25
Yeah, everybody should? Yeah, well, the profile is kind of just like the hook, where someone either decide that they’re interested or not. So you can put pictures of hobbies, you can talk about your hobbies, you can put pictures of yourself at work, talk about that on your profile. But the second part is the conversation that takes place after you match. And there’s a lot of guys and girls out there who complain about the conversations always being very Hey, what’s up, How’s work? Cool. And it gets extremely boring, especially when you don’t know the person and you can’t feel their presence, or their energy. It’s literally like talking to a brick wall. It’s talking to a screen. So you got to you got to try a little bit. And I know that it’s awkward for a lot of people, but you got to push past it. And, and ask like some of those questions you were talking about, what do you like to do for fun? Where’s the last place you traveled? And then meet up? I mean, that’s, it’s not a pen pal app. Trust me, you can’t get to know somebody through texting alone. Even like facetiming and stuff at some point, I recommend sooner rather than later. You have to meet the person and just see if the chemistry is there or not.
Aaron Tharp 18:49
Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s that’s incredibly true. The whole idea that the obviously you you were both intrigued, and you both swiped in my, in my opinion, I don’t think that it’s necessarily the woman’s responsibility. I think it’s the man’s responsibility to lead the interaction where he would like it to go, which again, goes back to having an intention. Okay, are you here because you would like to meet up or because you would like to meet up? Well, if that is true, and that’s authentically true, then you’re obviously going to take means or eight you’re going to have a direction that that aligns with that and if you’re not, if you’re kicking tires, then that’s where the conversations probably gonna fall flat.
Mary Claire Schibelka 19:35
Yeah, you know what Bumble allows you the option to say what you’re there for. There’s like something casual friends relationship. I don’t know. I think marriage is on there. Which I don’t get you have to have a relationship before you get married, hopefully. But if you say that like say what you mean, you know, if you don’t want to have a relationship fine. Again, like I’m not here to judge And I don’t think the women are on there to judge either. It’s just okay. If you want, if they want a relationship and they see somebody else is looking for a friend or something casual, it’s like, just save both yourselves that time.
Aaron Tharp 20:12
Yeah. Yeah, there’s a there’s a, at least to my experience. There’s only like four or five different, what are you looking for? And I think that there could be about seven or eight that are that could potentially be added on there. Because you don’t want to seem like something casual it makes you seem like you’re just you’re out to take what you can get or you Yeah, you’re having fun with a plethora of of opportunity. But also, if you’re there for relationship, or you’re there for marriage, specifically, that that creates a little bit of like, Okay, well, let’s slow down. We’re just, we’re just kind of trying to meet people. So there’s a, I don’t think that’s very balanced at all. But you know,
Mary Claire Schibelka 20:56
right. Oh, there’s a not sure option to there’s not sure. Yeah, there’s a not sure option? I think that’s fair. Yeah, well, they’re exploring, you’re gonna see where it goes. Sure.
Aaron Tharp 21:07
I agree with that. But I think if if you’re there, at least in my view, if you’re there as a guide, and you’re you’re hoping to meet and date, especially on those two, on Tinder or whatever else, it’s like, okay. But on those two specifically, it seems like, if you have an intention to do it, then you should at least explain that or you should you should list that. Yeah, teach there. Oh,
Mary Claire Schibelka 21:33
I agree. I agree. I mean, if you’re brand new, you’ve never done a dating app before. And you’re not sure what it’s like, go ahead and and put that but I think hinge is marketed for people who are looking for relationships.
Aaron Tharp 21:47
Yeah. So now I would be willing to bet that women are getting far more messages. I think for you guys, it’s more that you have to filter through the barrage, more than you have to filter through. Right. I don’t know the statistics, but I I’m inclined to agree. Yeah. And I, I’m, I think that if you just have a, a balanced view of things, I actually, you know, that would suck. Because, you know, you’re just getting a barrage of stuff, so that you have to be really good. And to some degree, you’ve always had to be really good about filtering out, you know, who to choose who to spend your time with, and, and, you know, to filter for those things. That’s something, there’s something that’s innate to you in that, but I think that would be really hard.
Mary Claire Schibelka 22:39
Yeah, there’s a fine line between sticking to your standards and being too picky. I mean, you can say, your height on these things. And again, your occupation, people can read between the lines, when it comes to what kind of job you do, and what your lifestyle, your what your financial situation looks like. So it’s different when you meet somebody in person, because again, you can feel their presence, you can feel their energy, you can feel the sound, or the hear the sound of their voice. On the apps, you have the the possibility, I think it’s high end to be very superficial. And a lot of people actually complain about that, with the apps, they’re like, this is all superficial. This is all about Lux. So I encourage people to be a little bit flexible, right? Like, you know, if the guy’s 511 and not six foot, is there really a deal breaker, but at the same time, there are things that that might be very important, like, how they identify their faith, or what they’re looking for. On the app. So yeah, it’s it’s like a walking on a tightrope. Yeah, like trying to just stay balanced and, and stay committed to your standards, but also not be shutting people out unnecessarily. Yeah, I’ve
Aaron Tharp 24:00
talked to I mean, I’ve just talked to some some of the girls that I know. And, you know, we’ll we’ll pull up our, our profiles, and you know, we’re, we try to give each other tips and help each other out, because that’s what you’re supposed to do. And I’m like, I see their message, their inbound messages, most of which are unread. And I’m like, Jesus, I mean, that that could take a year to catch up on so it’s like, my just doesn’t look that vibrant, I guess, if you will. So now, that’s not a complaint. It’s more just like, wow, there’s a lot. There’s a lot to filter through. And it’s like I’m here, especially if you have an intention to want to meet and get together. It’s like, wow, that’s there’s a lot of work. So I can imagine that’ll be tough.
Mary Claire Schibelka 24:52
Yeah, I mean, that’s why I recommend like, meeting as soon as possible because if you’re talking to like 10, guys on there. And then five of them don’t ever offer to take you on a date. And then five do it’s like those are the ones who you’re gonna build the connection with faster or at least figure out if the connection is there or not. And a lot of women, they they report that the chatting and just the constant texting feels like a huge waste of time.
Aaron Tharp 25:26
Yeah, that’s the console sending the phone should just be used for for setting dates and getting together in my opinion. Of course, you got to have your your initial, okay, yes, I am the guy that’s in the photo. And, yes, I have right, I have a pet. But then beyond that, it’s like, the phone should just be used for setting appointments and getting together. I mean, I work in sales. And I don’t care how you want to split it, the dating market is you are selling yourself and you’re being sold. So yeah, same principle,
Mary Claire Schibelka 25:58
maybe like one FaceTime before, just to make sure he is who He says He is. Sure that’s all you need.
Aaron Tharp 26:04
So would you would you say would you suggest then if conversation seems to be going? You know, it seems to be moving along? That would be something that that maybe men should suggest or put out there.
Mary Claire Schibelka 26:20
Okay, Stein? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Sure. And it’s absolutely necessary. But it could be a safety measure. Yeah. And it could be, you know, I’ve heard the argument to that it’s a screening process, because you can tell a little bit more about a person through FaceTime, you know, you see their facial expression, you hear the inflection of their voice. And that can actually help you decide, do I want to take an hour, two hours, whatever, out of my day to go get a coffee with this person? Sure. Something like that.
Aaron Tharp 26:53
Okay, so we’ve been talking about, we’ve been talking about the online dating apps, which I mean, we could probably have a whole other episode or two or three or six about that. But, yeah, one of the things when we when we first, when we first had our initial conversation, I was really floored by a question that you had asked me. And I, because I’d never heard it from somebody kind of, of our similar age. And you had asked me what it was like to be a man in the current dating world. And I want to I wanted to find out where that came from, or why you asked me that. So I can know which questions to answer. Well, no, just it seemed like it was a little deeper than that. Because, you know, it’s just, we have to, we have to watch our step a little bit more than we used to. And is that is that where that question came from? And yeah, is that is that kind of where the source of where that question came from?
Mary Claire Schibelka 28:02
When you say watch your stuff. You mean in terms of you just
Aaron Tharp 28:08
Mary Claire Schibelka 28:09
Are you talking about? Are you talking about the me to movement and things like that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think, Okay, first of all, I’m with the me to movement. And a lot of ways I think that it’s great. I think a lot of really, really bad people have finally had to take accountability and receive justice. However, I can empathize with men who feel almost scared to do something that is going to unintentionally cross a line, meaning like, verbally, verbally speaking, I think physically, it’s pretty cut and dry. Now, when it comes to Well, actually, you know what, I’m gonna circle back to that. Now, verbally there, there are a lot of guys who I have talked to and who have worked with who have said, like, Man, I’m really struggling with this whole idea of like, respect a woman’s boundaries when they don’t want to go on a date with you, or when they want to break up or something like that, versus this very, like romanticized idea that a lot of women talk about, and want, which is fight for what you love, fight for what you want fight for me. And these are well meaning guys, the perpetrators, they’re not asking these questions, right? These are well meaning guys who want to respect women, and who, who don’t want to cross boundaries. And I think sometimes they just don’t exactly know where that line is. And the reason I said I wanted to circle back to the physical is because I think it can get a little, a little gray when it comes to things like holding hands, or kissing. You know, I’ve met men who have said like these days, I asked before I do anything. I asked, Can I hold your hand I asked, Can I kiss you? And then I’ve met other guys To say that they’ve done that, and then they’ve gotten feedback from women that it kills the moment. So with that, I mean, I guess I say err on the side of caution, especially as a woman, I think I’ll always default to that. But I also a lot of it comes down to knowing the person who you’re with not trying to rush the process. And looking for those nonverbal cues of When is she sitting closer to you when is like, the skin on each of your arms brushing against one is eye contact, lingering a little bit longer? Like, what are you looking at each other’s lips nonverbal communication is, is real. And it can be very accurate sometimes, but if you don’t know, don’t do it or ask.
Aaron Tharp 30:51
It’s, in my opinion, it’s incumbent upon when to really get get to know and to be able to really understand things like body language sub communication, what’s being told that’s not being spoken? Yeah, we we love a challenge. It’s just how we’re wired. And we’re visually stimulated. So we will often overlook the women who have put themselves into our orbit, and have made themselves available to us, and are expecting us to do something about that. Because we’re looking at somebody you know, across the room, or across the gym, or across the bar, whatever it is, who were visually stimulated by who is not showing us interest, hoping that we’re going to go over there and change that. And yeah, you know, it’s just, it makes it easier for you, at least in, in my opinion, that if you focus on engaging the women who have made it known by way of how they put themselves into your orbit, how their body language is facing you, are they flipping their hair? Are they giving you? Are they giving your eyes? are they showing you their neck? Or their, their knees facing you? There’s just a lot of things that are I mean, I mean, maybe I should you’re the expert on this, maybe I should turn it over to you. What What should they be looking for other than those two things? or?
Mary Claire Schibelka 32:20
Yeah, yeah, like women who are trying to talk to them a lot or making efforts to go around them if you’re in a crowd of people, and maybe you’re in a friend group. And every time the friend group is together, she gravitates to you, it’s like, maybe she’s interested. And again, if you’re not sure, there, you can ask, do you want to go on a date with me? And if you’re seeing those nonverbal cues that we just talked about, your chances are probably higher that she’ll say, yes, um, I wouldn’t recommend just out of the blue going in and kissing somebody. But it’s okay to take to take risks to take small risks that are not harmful in any way, like asking somebody, do you want to go on a date with me that’s appropriate, that’s necessary. And again, the the well, meaning, guys, I don’t think that they’re out there just crossing lines, left and right. But at the same time, they do have to also take the nonverbal cues up when someone isn’t interested to, because they can go both ways. There can be women who are showing signs of interest, and they miss it. And then there are guys who think that somebody is interested, and it’s like, Where are you getting that?
Aaron Tharp 33:46
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. My stance is that when women have a high degree of interest in your, or if they have an interest in you, they’ll help you. So they’ll make it easy for you to either engage in conversation, or they put themselves into your orbit, which makes things really easy for you. And it’s not about just taking shortcuts, it’s like, Dude, why would you waste your time going over there, and trying to raise somebody’s level of interest in you, who hasn’t shown it from the start?
Mary Claire Schibelka 34:20
And like, open your eyes to what’s right in front of you, right type of thing,
Aaron Tharp 34:23
right? And it doesn’t mean that the immediate people have to be your long term significant other, that you’re going to marry them. Oftentimes, more often than not, it’s not, but it’s a really good way for you to, you know, be more social to maybe refine your skill set used to be called as game but, you know, to engage in conversation so that way when you actually do encounter a woman that you’re interested in that you’re not so awkward, because it just gonna feel very normal, right? Mm hmm.
Mary Claire Schibelka 34:56
So you’re talking about kind of like almost like practicing Yeah, talking to women. Yeah. And, and flirting and yeah, no, there’s, there’s a huge element of practice when it comes to dating. In my opinion, I mean, sure, you might, you might fall in love with the person, the first person that you go out with, you might marry that person. But for a lot of people, it is kind of like, what do I like in a person? And why do I not like a person? And and that’s okay, if you’re, if you’re going into dating with the physical and emotional boundaries that you believe in. There’s nothing wrong with going on a few dates with somebody. Um, even if you’re not completely sure that it’s gonna be your forever match.
Aaron Tharp 35:43
Yeah, yeah. Because it does. It’s like a, it’s like a muscle. It’s got to work if you just show up and you’ve been talking to nothing but your neighbor and your guy friends. Your flirtation game is going to be a little rusty. You got to you got to amplify a little bit of charm. You got to have a little bit of humor. Not I mean, maybe a little way but you know. And right, you know, dish a little bit. You almost have to this is gonna sound really weird, but not really. So I’ve always thought that like if you if you find a way you know, like an older brother will kind of jab or not jab but like kind of teases little sister. I mean, he loves her, but it’s like he kind of tease Yeah, yeah, you can’t do too much. But like, you know, you kind of messing around, you know, should. It should be playful and fun. It shouldn’t be so serious. And just so like, stagnant. Yeah, right.
Mary Claire Schibelka 36:33
Yes. playful is good. Yeah, playful is good. playful is flirty.
Aaron Tharp 36:38
Yeah. Right. And that’s the end. And that’s the energy that you exude. If you’re going in really serious. And you have you know, you’re you’re in your head, which guys tend to be in I have a proclivity towards that you can feel that you can sense that I’m not in the moment, and I got a direction I’m trying to go and I’m in a rush.
Unknown Speaker 36:58
Mary Claire Schibelka 37:00
And you know, if you’re being flirtatious and playful with somebody, and they’re reciprocating that that’s a good sign that that person’s probably interested in you.
Aaron Tharp 37:09
Yeah, cuz if they’re not, you’re
Mary Claire Schibelka 37:10
gonna take a little bit of risk. Yeah, for sure. Right? Exactly. They’ll shut it down. They’ll walk away. Yeah, they’ll be really serious. So yeah, you have to take you have to take a little bit of risks, healthy risks,
Aaron Tharp 37:22
right? When you know, you don’t get anything, you can’t steal second with your foot on first. I mean, you have to put yourself out there. And that comes with rejection. So now that’s exactly right. Which that’s part of it. That’s part whether you’re doing it online, whether you’re doing or offline, you’re gonna miss way more than you hit. That’s maybe a bad way euphemism or a bad way to say it. You’re, you’re gonna strike out more times than you have hit the ball, right? So
Mary Claire Schibelka 37:53
I can do a whole talk on dealing with rejection. Because you’re right, it’s you have to be ready to take rejection. If you want to put yourself out there. It’s par for the course. I could. Yeah, I could talk about that all day. Go ahead. I mean, maybe next time. I mean, yeah, it’s, well, okay, the number one thing that I tell people is that rejection is not necessarily a reflection on, you know, if you did something inappropriate, or you were rude or something, it probably is a reflection on you. But nine times out of 10. It’s just a compatibility thing, like the qualities that one person doesn’t like about you or that they don’t find attractive, or they don’t have chemistry with someone else is going to absolutely love those things. So it’s not about how do I act a certain way? How do I pretend? How do I change myself into who somebody wants? Or Oh, I got rejected. So I must be a loser. I must be ugly. No, no, like dating is like a, how many people are in the world 7 billion piece puzzle, or whatever it is just about who you fit with and who you don’t?
Aaron Tharp 38:59
Yeah, and it could be right person wrong time. Oh, that’s so true as well. Yeah. Context plays a huge role. You could be very interested in so could she and she’s potentially just entered into or her ex boyfriend came back or she’s trying to figure out something you don’t know what’s going on in the background?
Mary Claire Schibelka 39:22
Yeah. Or there was a trauma and a family or a work project that’s taking up 24 hours a day or like, you know, they’re studying for the medical school things. I don’t know what that’s called. One of my best friends just did that. And I know she was studying like, literally 13 hours a day. So yeah, the point is, there’s so many, so many different things that could be going on and if you get rejected, you don’t need to beat yourself up and tell yourself that you’re a terrible, horrible unlovable person. That’s not helpful and it’s not true.
Aaron Tharp 39:56
No, it also it also communicates to that you You invest and you care more of what other people think of you than you think of yourself, which I don’t care if it’s in the dating game, the business game, the social game, whatever game, that’s a terrible business to get into. You have to value yourself absolutely first. So that if somebody else comes along, and they don’t like what you’re offering, or they can’t take you up on your offer, for whatever reason, that you should still be intact, and have all the things that you went into that with. And yeah.
Mary Claire Schibelka 40:33
And that is exactly what I’m here to teach people.
Unknown Speaker 40:37
How often that’s what it’s all about, how
Aaron Tharp 40:39
often are women experiencing rejection? I mean, because i a lot, really
Mary Claire Schibelka 40:45
a lot. Yeah, I mean, there are those guys at the bar who won’t reject anyone as long as they have a pulse. But, ya know, like women, extraordinary women, beautiful women, smart women, funny women. They also come across a lot of guys who are just for whatever reason, they’re not interested, you’re not their type, or all the reasons you just named, they just got out of a relationship or it happens. Really,
Aaron Tharp 41:13
that’s, that’s Yeah, that’s, I think that’s, that’s helpful for guys to know, we’re prideful. We we’re visually stimulated. And when we you often hear it where it’s like, you know, the guys like this is maybe a little extreme, but you do hear it where the guys like, Oh my god, man, I’m gonna I’m gonna marry that girl, I’m gonna be with that. It’s like, dude, you don’t even know anything about her? Nothing. Right? Right. Where with women, it takes you guys fall in love slower. So it’s about the whole experience, the courtship and how you go about it, how you handle yourself, how you handle eat, how you handle her, how you handle yourself, when you’re out the whole process of how you ask her out. It’s the whole process, guys are just a little bit more simple. And we, we fall faster. So you know,
Mary Claire Schibelka 42:03
what’s interesting, is a lot of women, they actually end up getting rejected by guys who started out that way, super into them, pursuing them. And then several weeks later, they’re not interested anymore, they find out that they’re talking to somebody else. And these are not the kind of guys that they would want to be with anyways. Um, but rejection doesn’t necessarily just happen in the beginning, when you shoot your shot at someone, rejection happens if somebody betrays you or you get cheated on, or they’re interested in a casual relationship, but then they’re not ready to take it to the next step. Maybe women experience more of that. Yeah. Again, I don’t know the statistics, but that’s very common as well.
Aaron Tharp 42:53
Yeah, that’s fair. And I think it’s, you know, we, the gut, that’s, that’s a great point that you make, because I think we’re rejection is usually taken at the the, the, the initial, like the initial disk, or like the initial meeting, right? So it’s like, if it didn’t work out was automatically rejection, where it seems like with women, not in every scenario, but they’re experiencing it, maybe a little bit more on the, well, this is what she wants, but he’s not really going to commit or he ends up being cheating or stepping out. So it seems like it’s maybe a little bit later in the courtship than it is in the very beginning. Is that fair to say?
Mary Claire Schibelka 43:37
Yeah, and again, I am kind of biased in a way because I just work with larger numbers of women than I do men. So that’s not to say that men don’t experience the exact same thing. I’m just telling you what I say
Aaron Tharp 43:51
no, that’s all good. I, my, again, my personal view, and this doesn’t have to be everybody what they what they should do, but I go after what I want. And I’m I have to be unattached to the outcome. It’s extremely hard to do. But yeah, it’s a it does sub communicate a level of strength and authenticity, that the performance is far superior towards and is actually authentic to me much longer lasting, because that’s who I am. So the performance can only be held up for so long before you sold somebody a bill of goods and that bill of goods is no good. And they begin to resent you for that, because that’s not who you really are.
Mary Claire Schibelka 44:42
Right? Yeah, there’s something to be said about not being so attached to everything that you go after, especially in the beginning. And like dating apps are a perfect example. This may sound kind of counterintuitive, but I tell a lot of my clients when you go on your first date with somebody who you met on an app Keep your hopes high and your expectations pretty low, because this person could be anybody. And if you have this idea, have them all built up in your head. And you’ve already planned out your whole relationship and what you’re going to do on your anniversary and what your wedding dress is going to look like, and you’ve never met this person once. You could be setting yourself up for a huge disappointment when it really doesn’t have to be that deep. It could. It should just be I met a new person. Maybe it works out maybe it doesn’t if it doesn’t sure I’d be sad. I mean, we’re not like cold hearted zombies, when you want it to work out, of course. But that’s it’s a different kind of sadness than this huge disappointment of like, I’ve already attached myself to this thing that I don’t even know anything about. Yeah, and
Aaron Tharp 45:51
regardless if they’re there or not never going to meet that expectation that you have in your mind that goes for both Yes, I have an ideal we have an ideal that you’ll not meet up meet up to you have an ideal that I won’t meet up to or we won’t meet up to or matchup to. So it’s the it’s in the acceptance of following short of that or in the acceptance of the flaws that make up the actual person. That’s why you hear that statement. Because it’s that ideal is impossible to attain.
Mary Claire Schibelka 46:32
It is Yeah, so don’t attach yourself to an ideal either.
Aaron Tharp 46:35
Mary Claire Schibelka 46:38
Life is messy. Messy people are messy. Yeah. And that’s not saying that you need to settle for somebody who has like all these really terrible flaws. You know, if they’re abusive, or they’re like an alcoholic or something. That’s one thing, but don’t expect perfection either. Because you’ll be waiting. Your whole life.
Aaron Tharp 46:59
Yeah, exactly. Which is further more important, so about why you got to get clear on your want clear on what you want. Now, we we talked a little bit in our first call about men who are too nice. Yes, I love this topic. You did because you just lit up like a Christmas tree there. Yeah. What? Why? Why do you love this topic so much? And
Mary Claire Schibelka 47:22
because it’s such a misconception, guys are always saying, Oh, I shouldn’t say that. I’m sorry. They’re not always saying a lot of guys. They think that when a woman says he’s too nice. They they go, Oh, women like jerks. That’s what it is. I’m nice. And women like jerks. That’s why they don’t like me. Let me tell you what to nice really means. There’s a personality trait called agree ability, and it’s on a spectrum. On one end, you have not agreeable. These are people who will argue with everything you say, these are the contrarians who have to play devil’s advocate to like every opinion you have and they can never just listen and they can’t go with the flow. It has to be their way or the highway. Okay. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, we have the people who are extremely agreeable. These are the people who always go with the flow. They don’t assert themselves, they don’t express their opinions. And that can appear apathetic. We talked earlier about how pretty much everybody likes a little bit of mystery. There’s no mystery at all. If you’re just putting your whole self out on the table right there. You’re not you’re you’re not leaving anything to the imagination. It also can really demonstrate having no boundaries. Where if if there is a guy who says to Me, we just went on a date today. We were together for four hours. What are you doing tomorrow morning? What are you doing tomorrow night? Let’s spend another holiday together? Oh, the day after that? Yeah, I’m free then too. It’s like, Wait a second. Do you work? Do you have friends? Like do you have hobbies because that stuff is incredibly important. It’s not about being nice. It’s about being an individual to individual people, with their own opinions, with their own desires, in a relationship together with their own personalities where it’s okay if one person says I want to get tacos tonight, and the other person says, Oh, I don’t really like tacos. Do you think that we could get pizza instead? I would 100% prefer that than sitting across the table from someone who’s forcing themselves to eat a food they don’t even like because they are afraid to lose me or afraid to hurt my feelings. And again, it can appear apathetic. It’s like do you even care? Do you have passions? That’s what it means when somebody is too nice. They’re too agreeable. Yep.
Aaron Tharp 49:57
That’s that calm. That’s part and parcel of all the things that men grew up watching on movies, TV shows, all kinds of the same of the same kind of thing. What we saw on TV, movies, and music videos, and all that stuff, is actually not how attraction works. Because it’s not even naturally us. What I mean by that is if the if you look at all the great, you know, sitcoms, or some of the music videos, they betray man is like this. blubbering, either idiot who the wife runs the household, and he he cracks jokes, and he’s just the, he’s the brunt of the jokes. Or if you’re like this, this Uber, Prince, charming romancing it’s like, Okay, well, where’s the challenge? And, yeah, like, we don’t like things that are just dropped in our lap, we like things that we have to earn a little bit. So when you’re nice, and you’re copacetic, because you’re you’re, you’re avoiding the risk of either hurting somebody’s feelings, or more importantly, at the depth of it, you’re afraid that you’re going to lose them. That is a really bad, really bad way to go. In my opinion, especially if you’re a guy.
Mary Claire Schibelka 51:16
Yeah, it can feel incredibly smothering as well. Yeah, I think for anybody, right guys to if, if, if they’re with a woman who has this expectation that they’re going to take you and put you right at the center of their life right away. That’s a huge. I don’t even it’s almost like I want to call it a, like a burden or something. Yeah, it’s almost like now suddenly, I’m responsible for this person’s happiness. I don’t even know this person hardly.
Aaron Tharp 51:54
Right. I see a therapist. And he, he mentioned and he’s he’s helped me with relationships, because it’s, of course, a part of everybody’s life. And it’s something that of course, I have a healthy mindset around and, you know, I’ve had my challenges I’ll be I’ll be frank, who hasn’t? Everybody has, yeah, who hasn’t? Right. One of the things that he pointed out to me, and it was really pivotal for me was that, you know, he has worked with clients, and they have fought to develop the idea or not really develop, or they’ve come to understand that their relationship was an accomplishment. Right? So it was two people that came together and really wanted it and they worked hard, and it’s good. And, and it’s it’s because of their work on it, that they feel that it’s an accomplishment, but it wasn’t at the center of their life before or after. Yes, it was a contributing thing. It added, what would you call, it added the added value to your life in it, and it contributed and but it wasn’t the actual centerpiece? I just, in my opinion, I think that relationship that a relationship should be at the center of a man’s life. I’m coming from a romance perspective. I think it should be something that is a compliment to your life. Not the fault. Yes.
Mary Claire Schibelka 53:12
Yeah, well, because another person is they’re imperfect. If you make somebody else the source of your happiness, you’re inevitably going to be a lot down. So of course, they’re a part of your life, they’re probably a huge source of happiness for you, but they can’t be the only thing. And you know what else there is, there was a sexologist, so somebody who studied sex and sexual attraction. He’s passed away, but his name was jack Morin. And he came up with something called the erotic equation. And the erotic equation goes attraction, plus obstacles equals excitement. So if you’re attracted to somebody, but there’s some kind of obstacle obstacle, they have to go to work, or this is especially prevalent and like, couples who may be long distance, or maybe there’s some kind of social stigma around you know, like a Romeo and Juliet, and you guys can’t be together, when there’s some kind of obstacle. And of course, in a healthy relationship, these are healthy obstacles, like the other person, they have a job or they have commitments with their friends, or whatever that actually leads to more excitement and your relationship. And this is tried and true. So no, being when a woman says that a man is too nice, it does not mean that she likes jerks. It probably either means that you have no boundaries, or that you’re being too agreeable, and you need to start being your own person.
Aaron Tharp 54:44
Yeah. So you gotta you got to have a backbone because also what that saying to you, is that okay, if we’re any in any real danger, are you going to be able to help me out here? Are you gonna be like, Are you just gonna give me what I want? Because you don’t have any boundaries. Like you Have a spine you’re going to be apart. It’s a safety security thing, I would think.
Mary Claire Schibelka 55:04
Yeah, I agree. It is. It’s biological, I think. I think on both sides we desire partners who are able to stand up for themselves advocate for themselves protect something. Um, because otherwise, the other person just ends up carrying the whole load.
Aaron Tharp 55:28
Yes. And it takes to to commiserate it’s reciprocal, right. So that’s one of the last things I want to talk to you about here. is on patients. So we live in a instant gratification, got to have it now don’t want to do the work of it’s too hard. I’m on to the next one. Yeah. And women are probably experiencing a high degree of impatient men, both in person and in the dating apps. Is that Is that a fair assessment? impatient In what way? Well, either they’re in a rush to get together or they’re in a rush to have the indoor Olympics, if you will. They’re just moving things along a lot faster. And you should get men should be going into it with the okay. Not in a skeptical way. But they should be going into interactions with women a little bit like Is she good for me, rather than just being visually stimulated and just getting impatient try to try to facilitate things, again, missing signs. So I hear it from a lot of the my my girlfriends that are that are on dating apps are there that they’re dating that there’s a lot of impatience out there.
Mary Claire Schibelka 56:52
Yeah. So there was a study published in 2019 that surveyed 68,000 women from 180 different countries, and what qualities they look for in men. And there was this myth in the past that men look for attractiveness, and women look for financial stability. However, this is what the study found 90% of women rate kindness as the most important trait they look for in a partner. Patience is part of being kind supportiveness intelligence, sharing similar values competence, trustworthiness, integrity, emotional availability, compassion, and respect, sense of humor, and maturity. So if you think about some of those words like maturity, compassion, it’s not very compassionate or mature at all, to try to force a relationship along. Before it’s time for that. What’s compassionate is is saying, Okay, this is how I feel how do you feel and let’s take this at a pace that we’re both comfortable with.
Aaron Tharp 57:59
Yeah, that all goes back to knowing what you want at least men trying to lead the interaction where he would like it to go being on attached to the outcome. And again, I think that the bonding and the and the being together, and I don’t know the moving in together, like the real the real bonding part, I think that you should let women kind of decide that they should, in my opinion, they should, they’ll let you know when they’re ready for that. And if you try to force or rush the situation, you are, you’re you’re you’re running into, you’re gonna run into trouble. In my opinion,
Mary Claire Schibelka 58:36
it goes both ways. Because as, as a woman, like women get stereotyped a lot of the time is like the clingy the needy. And that’s kind of the same thing. It’s like trying to force somebody to like you, or trying to force somebody to be around you when maybe that relationship would be the one in due time. But when you’re impatient and you do try to force those things, you just sabotage it.
Aaron Tharp 59:04
Yeah. Now, one last thing, would you, would you, when you’re working with your clients? do you encourage them to kind of keep their options open? Not in in a non committed ways to where it’s like futile for the people that are trying to set up dates with them more so that you would that your focus just isn’t on one particular person. Right, because I think that that’s the tendency for at least a lot of guys is to they they get one itis and then they don’t realize that that’s coming through in their actions, and that’s a bit smothering and it’s like, right, we’re
Mary Claire Schibelka 59:46
not against it. Okay, I’m not against it. I think it depends on the situation. Now, if you have, if you have interest in somebody, and maybe you haven’t gone on a date yet or you’ve gone on One or you’re hanging out his friends and things are moving really, really slow. I would not encourage somebody to wait around right for that person and turn down an opportunity from another nice, friendly, cool person who they like to go get dinner with them. Right? Because what I just described the former, that is not a relationship. Okay, so that is not cheating, if you go to dinner with somebody else, when you have barely gotten to know somebody else. Um, but, you know, I think I, I think that if a relationship is exclusive, that needs to be said. I think that needs to be said. So both people know what the expectation is. I also think people are smart, and they can infer, like, Oh, this person’s really into me, I can tell that they want us to be serious. And then it just kind of becomes about respect at that point. Um, and what do you want out of the relationship, if you want a committed relationship with this person, and you know that they do too, and things seem to be moving in that direction, then you might think long and hard about whether you want to go out with somebody else, right. But if you barely know this person, you’re interested, but it hasn’t really developed into anything. I say go for it. If you get asked out with somebody else.
Aaron Tharp 1:01:40
Yeah, just it. An abundance is is a good thing when you’re when you’re when you’re looking.
Mary Claire Schibelka 1:01:50
And you’re just getting to know people. Right? Exactly. You’re just getting to know people at the early stages, you could end up friends with one of them, you can end up dating, the other one, there’s nothing wrong with meeting new people and getting to know them. And then you’ll see which relationships are moving ahead and which ones aren’t. Yeah,
Aaron Tharp 1:02:10
I agree. Well, I I want to first of all, I want to I want to express the gratitude that I have for what you’re doing. In working with, with young women. I think it’s really great and what you’re teaching them to not only become but to what to really look for. So a huge debt of gratitude for for what you’re doing and taking a risk to do this as your line of work. Thank you. Yeah. So if our listeners were interested in finding out a little bit more about some of your content, some of the things that you do and work with your clients on where can they go to do that.
Mary Claire Schibelka 1:02:49
I’m on Instagram at t with MC that’s ta with MC for Mary Claire. And I’m not gonna lie, I’ve been on a little bit of a summer break. I’ve been traveling, I like doing all these things. So in the fall, I’m gonna be releasing brand new coaching programs that are tailored and designed for people’s unique needs. So follow me on Instagram. And stay tuned.
Aaron Tharp 1:03:14
Very cool. Well, again, thank you for your time. I’m sure we’ll have you back. Josh is probably want to get to talk to you a little bit about the ongoing courtship after you’re married. And that’s just as important as the initial dating but I’m very grateful for Thank you. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. I
Mary Claire Schibelka 1:03:32
know. I’m grateful for you. Thank you so much for the invitation. It has been fun.
Aaron Tharp 1:03:36
Yeah, for sure. Well, have fun at Lollapalooza and I Well, we’ll see on on on the next episode. We’ll see ya. Cheers. Cheers.
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